Wednesday, September 21, 2011
This Decision Is Pretty Simple
Deciding who is in the right in the dispute regarding Israel vis a vis the West Bank and Gaza can have a simple Occam's Razor type solution. Here's the relevant dividing line.
About 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim of Arab ethnic origin. They have all the rights of citizenship with one big difference. They don't have to serve in the IDF.
When Israel unilaterally withdrew from the formerly Egyptian territory known as Gaza several years ago, they had to remove all the Jews, both living and dead, and make the area Judenrein, a Nazi term meaning free of or clean of Jews. That's just what they propose for the formerly Jordanian territory called the West Bank. Judenrein for the area seeking statehood.
So, if you support Israel, you support a multicultural society where the Arabs and Muslims have full citizenship rights (but not full responsibilities) and many ethnic Arab Israeli citizens are active in all levels of all areas of government and commerce. If you support the ethnic Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, you side with them in the Nazi policy of forcibly removing all the Jews from those areas.
I support Israel, as I tend to hate everything the Nazis did regarding the Jews of Europe.
Perhaps you think differently.
About 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim of Arab ethnic origin. They have all the rights of citizenship with one big difference. They don't have to serve in the IDF.
When Israel unilaterally withdrew from the formerly Egyptian territory known as Gaza several years ago, they had to remove all the Jews, both living and dead, and make the area Judenrein, a Nazi term meaning free of or clean of Jews. That's just what they propose for the formerly Jordanian territory called the West Bank. Judenrein for the area seeking statehood.
So, if you support Israel, you support a multicultural society where the Arabs and Muslims have full citizenship rights (but not full responsibilities) and many ethnic Arab Israeli citizens are active in all levels of all areas of government and commerce. If you support the ethnic Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank, you side with them in the Nazi policy of forcibly removing all the Jews from those areas.
I support Israel, as I tend to hate everything the Nazis did regarding the Jews of Europe.
Perhaps you think differently.
Labels: Arab Israeli Conflict; Jedenrein
# posted by Roger Fraley @ 4:16 PM 
Comments:
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That's a very straw-man like argument. Most people aren't calling for the eradication of jews from the west bank. Just a rightful return of land that was unfairly taken from the Palestinians (or, since they're not a real nation, the people currently living in the occupied Palestinian territories). And you can make a call for cessation of illegal West Bank settlements by Israelis without being compared to Nazis.
Or you can turn this into a "You're either with the Israelis (And their token Arab friends!) or you're with the modern Nazi movement". Either one really. Whatever.
Or you can turn this into a "You're either with the Israelis (And their token Arab friends!) or you're with the modern Nazi movement". Either one really. Whatever.
# posted by 
: 9:29 AM
: 9:29 AM
Even Israeli's recognize that the settlements are still being set up, many of which are illegal. Maybe not all of them, but I'd wager it's a majority. How do you not see that as illegal? What, are they randomly discovering deeds to West Bank land at garage sales?
Ending the tensions starts with stopping the Israeli encroachment on Palestinian (excused me--disputed territory with country-less citizens') land.
And you can recognize that both sides have their problems, without blindly taking one side and frivolously throwing Nazi comparisons around. Look up Godwin's Law. You're doing that.
Ending the tensions starts with stopping the Israeli encroachment on Palestinian (excused me--disputed territory with country-less citizens') land.
And you can recognize that both sides have their problems, without blindly taking one side and frivolously throwing Nazi comparisons around. Look up Godwin's Law. You're doing that.
# posted by : 2:38 PM
: 2:38 PM
I'll ask again, since you neglected to answer the questions: Why can't a Jew buy some land in the West Bank and build a house or an apartment flat? Who says it's illegal to do that? Wait until you can answer those questions before you throw Godwin's law at me. It's never frivolous to mention the Nazis when discussing Israel because the Holocaust is the sine qua non for a Jewish nation around Jerusalem. Two more question: Who threw the Palestinians out of Jordan east of the Jordan river? Why? The connection of those questions to what we're discussing should become obvious when you learn the answers.
"Most people aren't calling for the eradication of jews from the west bank."
You're right: it's not that limited. The people presently living in Gaza and the West Bank (let's call them "Palestinians" for simplicity) are calling for the extinguishment of all of the Jews from the Middle East. Y'know, the old "drive them into the sea" trick.
Unfairly taken? The original U.N. plan was for two states. The Israelis took one; the Palestinians rejected the other in 1948, and have not only rejected serial reasonable offers of peaceful co-existence ever since, but have waged two separate "intifadas" against the people of Israel.
The "right of return" of the third generation of Palestinian refugees to the land of Israel is about as reasonable as would be giving Manhattan back to the Indians who sold it for trinkets to Peter Minuit in 1626. It ain't gonna happen. It would be suicide for Israel, as would be a return to the Israeli ~15 mile former "waist" borders without the West Bank.
Israel has bought the West Bank with the blood of its people spilt in wars initiated by the surrounding Arab countries. It gives Israeli Arabs the rights of citizens, and if I'm not mistaken, there are one or more Arabs presently members of the Knesset.
The Palestinians have had 70+ years to figure out how to establish a government, a society, a set of laws, and build a commercial base, but they've chosen to harbor non-productive hatred and resentment and violence and be guided and governed by terrorists.
Sorry for the long post, but as I'm sure you can tell, I have a really hard time generating sympathy for the Palestinians when they have failed to do crap to try to help themselves.
You're right: it's not that limited. The people presently living in Gaza and the West Bank (let's call them "Palestinians" for simplicity) are calling for the extinguishment of all of the Jews from the Middle East. Y'know, the old "drive them into the sea" trick.
Unfairly taken? The original U.N. plan was for two states. The Israelis took one; the Palestinians rejected the other in 1948, and have not only rejected serial reasonable offers of peaceful co-existence ever since, but have waged two separate "intifadas" against the people of Israel.
The "right of return" of the third generation of Palestinian refugees to the land of Israel is about as reasonable as would be giving Manhattan back to the Indians who sold it for trinkets to Peter Minuit in 1626. It ain't gonna happen. It would be suicide for Israel, as would be a return to the Israeli ~15 mile former "waist" borders without the West Bank.
Israel has bought the West Bank with the blood of its people spilt in wars initiated by the surrounding Arab countries. It gives Israeli Arabs the rights of citizens, and if I'm not mistaken, there are one or more Arabs presently members of the Knesset.
The Palestinians have had 70+ years to figure out how to establish a government, a society, a set of laws, and build a commercial base, but they've chosen to harbor non-productive hatred and resentment and violence and be guided and governed by terrorists.
Sorry for the long post, but as I'm sure you can tell, I have a really hard time generating sympathy for the Palestinians when they have failed to do crap to try to help themselves.
# posted by : 8:55 PM
: 8:55 PM
Andrew:
Abbas states quite clearly that the "occupation" of Palestine has been going on for 63 years, not for 44 years (Google it and check it out for yourself. If you do the math, you'll see that 1967 is not the problem. 1948 is the problem.In other words, the official Palestinian position is that Israel proper is as illegitimate as any settlement in the West Bank.The Palestinian's are offering the Israel two options: a violent, bloody death (Hamas) or peaceful demographic extinction(some elements of Fatah).
How should Israel respond to this?
Abbas states quite clearly that the "occupation" of Palestine has been going on for 63 years, not for 44 years (Google it and check it out for yourself. If you do the math, you'll see that 1967 is not the problem. 1948 is the problem.In other words, the official Palestinian position is that Israel proper is as illegitimate as any settlement in the West Bank.The Palestinian's are offering the Israel two options: a violent, bloody death (Hamas) or peaceful demographic extinction(some elements of Fatah).
How should Israel respond to this?
# posted by : 2:46 PM
: 2:46 PM
Netanyahu's UN speech on 9/23 can be found at The Right Scoop, here:
http://tinyurl.com/67tflj6
It's a 40 minute lesson in statesmanship (and he doesn't pull any punches while criticizing the delegates, either.)
Anyone wanna bet on whether Abbas responded to Netanyahu's outstretched hand?
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http://tinyurl.com/67tflj6
It's a 40 minute lesson in statesmanship (and he doesn't pull any punches while criticizing the delegates, either.)
Anyone wanna bet on whether Abbas responded to Netanyahu's outstretched hand?
# posted by : 8:32 PM
: 8:32 PM << Home
