Thursday, February 22, 2007
The Ghosts of Abu Ghraib vs. The Stanford Prison Experiment
I have to admit that I didn't watch it all (I was switching back and forth to the Avs being humiliated by the Wild) but I came away from Rory Kennedy's documentary on the torture in Abu Ghraib wondering where were two things: 1) Commenters who are not of the Andrew Sullivan school of torture detection; and, 2) Torture. I saw abuse and humiliation, and evidence of one either involuntary manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide, but that was about it. It was a little boring too and pretentious yet obvious. That's not a good combination. Under certain conditions ordinary people can be very mean to other people, but we knew that from an aborted experiment from my old school.
What angered me was its one-sidedness (did they have no films of what Saddam used to do to people in that prison--I seem to remember seeing some--was the Nick Berg video copyrighted by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?) particularly the rampant speculation by three or four 'torture' experts, all singing in the same key. Ultimately, however, it was a pretty big yawn. Any outrage I had from seeing the photos years ago dissipated with the internecine struggle lately the center of Iraq and reports of actual torture in Fallujah and all around Baghdad.
It repeats at 10:30 tonight but I think I'll forego the pleasure.
What angered me was its one-sidedness (did they have no films of what Saddam used to do to people in that prison--I seem to remember seeing some--was the Nick Berg video copyrighted by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi?) particularly the rampant speculation by three or four 'torture' experts, all singing in the same key. Ultimately, however, it was a pretty big yawn. Any outrage I had from seeing the photos years ago dissipated with the internecine struggle lately the center of Iraq and reports of actual torture in Fallujah and all around Baghdad.
It repeats at 10:30 tonight but I think I'll forego the pleasure.
# posted by Roger Fraley @ 9:16 PM 
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I would agree with your last point, though not having a TV here, I too missed it.
The reality is that whatever we did there was, first and foremost, punished. Soldiers are in prison right now for what they did there.
But as importantly, whatever our troops did there, it pales in comparison with the type of torture that is going on right now in the sectarian violence in Iraq. That is real torture, not the humiliation, etc. that was practiced by a handful of our troops there.
The reality is that whatever we did there was, first and foremost, punished. Soldiers are in prison right now for what they did there.
But as importantly, whatever our troops did there, it pales in comparison with the type of torture that is going on right now in the sectarian violence in Iraq. That is real torture, not the humiliation, etc. that was practiced by a handful of our troops there.
As to the Avs, didn't we used to have a hockey team of that name here in Colorado? I seem to remember something to that effect awhile back.
Sorry, just a little harassment.
Sorry, just a little harassment.
I didn't watch the documentary. I agree w/ Roger et al: humilation, yes; torture? I don't think so.
What I find disconcerting is that the investigation began and ended w/ a few non commisioned officers and privates. Surely some officers must have known and abetted what occurred @ Abu Graib.
What I find disconcerting is that the investigation began and ended w/ a few non commisioned officers and privates. Surely some officers must have known and abetted what occurred @ Abu Graib.
# posted by 
: 10:03 AM
: 10:03 AM
Good comments Bruce, we've traded away too many for too little in return, I fear, and some of those who come to the Avs don't play very well until after they leave (kind of like the Rockies). Tony, the general in charge of MP in Iraq, a big woman whose name I've forgotten, got demoted to colonel. That's it, but I'm not sure the top brass did know about the naked dog piles. Perhaps.
You really think that what Saddam did in Abu Ghraib somehow absolves the Americans?
Your argument seems to boil down to this: so long as the atrocities committed by Americans (including manslaughter) don't equal those of Saddam, "it's all good baby!"
Logic Roger. Please.
Your argument seems to boil down to this: so long as the atrocities committed by Americans (including manslaughter) don't equal those of Saddam, "it's all good baby!"
Logic Roger. Please.
Not make allright but reduce to insignificance. Saddam fed people live into huge plastic shredders. I just can't get worked up over making a guy wear underwear on his head. Logic includes the ability to rationally compare actions and judge which was worse and which was petty. Thanks for the counter-view.
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