XDA

"....Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For this end, we must knit together, in this work as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of others' necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience, and liberality. We must delight in each other; make others' conditions our own; rejoice together; mourn together; labor and suffer together, always having our before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. The Lord will be our God, and delight to dwell among us, as his own people, and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways, so that we shall see much more of his wisdom, power, goodness, and truth, than formerly we have been acquainted with. We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when he shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeeding plantations, "may the Lord make it like that of New England." For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story abd a by-word through the world......"

From "A Model of Christian Charity" delivered by Governor John Winthrop in 1630 aboard the Arabella. This was one of Ronald Reagan's favorite sermons. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
 

One of the things I'm most thankful for is that I'm an American. Happy Thanksgiving, T. Let me know when we make give and take Lamb, Elk and Deer.
 

The problem with Pascal's wager is that it's far too limited. There are several unwarranted and unstated assumptions embodied therein.

First it assumes that "God" is the god described in the Christian bible. Second, it assumes that he actually cares more about belief than other things. Third, it assumes that he is actually capable of determining your post-life destiny. Fourth, it assumest that there is no harm from "believ[ing] ... impossible things", whether before or after breakfast.

For instance, from available evidence, there's just as much reason to think that belief in the god of Christianity would anger a supreme deity as that it would please him. In that case, belief would result in hell and disbelief would result in nothing or heaven, which rather changes the terms of the wager.

Now, let's take a look at a different scenario. In this one, let's assume that Pascal was actually correct about the possibilities and further that there is a god. Then the wager devolves to "Believe in the God of the Christians or he will torture you for eternity." I consider that as an exemplar of evil. Given that, let's take another look at the wager: Either God exists or not and either you worship evil or not. If God doesn't exist, you've lost nothing by refusing to worship evil. If God does exist, you can choose to worship evil or not. Which means that if you don't worship evil, you get nothing at all or at least you don't spend eternity worshipping evil.

(I understand that there are different ways to look at this, but we're taking Pascal on his stated terms here.)

It all depends on how you look at things. Believe or don't believe; that's pretty much what faith is all about. But you shouldn't be ashamed that Pascal's wager doesn't help your analysis, because it's either naïve or disingenuous.
 

As usual, Doug gets the last thought provoking word. I think Pascal did assume that the Christian God wants us to love Him which necessarily involves following His dictates and worshiping Him. Along that path may lie salvation. Hell is merely the default outcome for those who do not worship the Christian God--it's punishment for wrongdoing that has not been forgiven by accepting Christ. I don't see it as punishement for not believing in the Christian God. Good analysis otherwise, though.
 

Forgive me for being dense here, but doesn't the fact that Pascal abandoned his work because of his belief in God disprove the tenent that believing in God has no price?

That is to say, in the case that you believe in God but he does not exist, there is indeed a very real price paid for this mistaken belief.

In Pascal's case it was the loss of his work, which not only cost him, but the rest of us as well.
 

Apparently, Pascal forgot the Parable of the Talents.
 

Pascal, if he is in Heaven and can think like a human still, would say that his studies were nothing compared to eternal communion with God. I have agreed in the past, Mike, that if you believe in God and He does not exist then you are paying some price; likewise if you do not believe and God does not exist, at least you're serving the Truth, which is something.
Anon, I recall the parable but not well enough to see clearly how it applies to Pascal. If you read here again, take the time to explain it, please.