Thursday, September 21, 2006
Joe Conason--Super Patriot
In an article at Real Clear Politics today, lefty writer Joe Conason writes that torture opponents are true patriots. I agree. We should do all we can to stop torture, especially of our guys. But, of course, Mr. Conason does not seem to be against the torture of our guys. Screw our guys. He's apparently only against harsh treatment, short of torture, of the murderous enemies of this nation.
Money quote:
The president has sent legislation to Capitol Hill that would "clarify" the parameters available to those who interrogate prisoners in the war on terrorism. His bill would apparently permit the use of "waterboarding," which simulates drowning, and "long time standing," which is exactly what it sounds like (with shackles), as well as sleep deprivation, hypothermia and death threats.
To oppose any of these methods, or so the political advertising would claim, is to jeopardize national security and coddle terrorists. That is how Republican strategists hope to make voters forget the incompetence and corruption on display in Washington, Baghdad and New Orleans.
The other thing that completely undercuts Mr. Conason's argument is that everything he describes is not torture. Saying mean things to a person is not torture; holding prisoners of war for the duration of the conflict is not torture; turning up or down the air conditioning is not torture; and, waterboarding, which at least comes close to the line, is not torture.
So count Mr. Conason's desire for us not to employ torture of the fanatical, illegal combatants as 'mission accomplished.' Well done, Joe! You're a true patriot.
Money quote:
The president has sent legislation to Capitol Hill that would "clarify" the parameters available to those who interrogate prisoners in the war on terrorism. His bill would apparently permit the use of "waterboarding," which simulates drowning, and "long time standing," which is exactly what it sounds like (with shackles), as well as sleep deprivation, hypothermia and death threats.
To oppose any of these methods, or so the political advertising would claim, is to jeopardize national security and coddle terrorists. That is how Republican strategists hope to make voters forget the incompetence and corruption on display in Washington, Baghdad and New Orleans.
The other thing that completely undercuts Mr. Conason's argument is that everything he describes is not torture. Saying mean things to a person is not torture; holding prisoners of war for the duration of the conflict is not torture; turning up or down the air conditioning is not torture; and, waterboarding, which at least comes close to the line, is not torture.
So count Mr. Conason's desire for us not to employ torture of the fanatical, illegal combatants as 'mission accomplished.' Well done, Joe! You're a true patriot.
# posted by Roger Fraley @ 8:14 AM 
Comments:
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Waterboarding is not torture? Interesting concept. Did you hear that the CIA guys who tried it lasted an average of 14 seconds?
How about rubber hosing? Chinese water torture?
Take your time.
How about rubber hosing? Chinese water torture?
Take your time.
My concept of rubber hosing is beating a guy with a heavy flexible hose which hurts a lot but doesn't do a lot of damage to the flesh. That's right out as torture. The traditional chinese water torture is dripping a single drop at a set interval on the head of a tied down prisoner. The water part of that is OK, the prolonged binding might well be past the line but it would depend on other factors such as length of time and whether the binding was itself painful. Quick enough response for you?
Plenty fast. Kind of funny that something with the word torture in it isn't even considered torture.
I'm going to keep going until we find something that you consider torture. How about bamboo shoots in the finger nails or the glass rod into the penis and then shatered, or how about when they tie a steel bowl to your stomach with a hungry rat underneath?
Any of those torture?
I'm going to keep going until we find something that you consider torture. How about bamboo shoots in the finger nails or the glass rod into the penis and then shatered, or how about when they tie a steel bowl to your stomach with a hungry rat underneath?
Any of those torture?
One last thing. Basically beating the crap out of someone is not torture, by your standard, so long as well, so long as what?
I'm confused.
I'm confused.
I'm sorry, I did not make myself clear. A prolonged beating (more than a couple of hits) with rubber hoses is torture (even if it's pretty mild torture). Chinese water torture is not torture unless the binding is painful and it's prolonged. Bamboo shoots under the fingernails (and ripping out the fingernails) is torture. Anything inserted in the penis (other than a medically necessary cathater) is torture. Pretty much any thing with hungry rats next to human flesh is torture (don't know about gerbils though--you hear such weird things about gerbils). Again sorry about the rubber hose misunderstanding--my fault. I really do have the big book of torture and there are a thousand horrible things you can do to people which is why Abu Graib always seemed to me to be too tame to call torture. I don't believe anything we've done at Gitmo was torture. Harsh yes, torture no.
Thanks for the clarification.
As with most things, it is very hard to draw the line with any degree of certainty. Sure, there are obviously thing that are torture, and things that are obviously not torture. The things that are in the middle is where people run into problems.
A simple example is the prolonged beating. One smack with the hose is not torture. Two is not torture. Three is not torture. Is 10? 20? 50? 100? 1000?
Where exactly does one draw the line? This is a rhetorical question, of course.
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As with most things, it is very hard to draw the line with any degree of certainty. Sure, there are obviously thing that are torture, and things that are obviously not torture. The things that are in the middle is where people run into problems.
A simple example is the prolonged beating. One smack with the hose is not torture. Two is not torture. Three is not torture. Is 10? 20? 50? 100? 1000?
Where exactly does one draw the line? This is a rhetorical question, of course.
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