Thursday, June 02, 2005
Geneva Convention imbalance
My blogfather, Hugh Hewitt, almost always refers to the Senator from Delaware, Joe Biden, as Slow Joe Biden. I've had trouble getting on board with that thought. It's hard for me to believe that someone who can run a successful campaign for the Senate could be truly dim. (I also have trouble believing that the Supreme Court justices shade their decisions so that they get invited to parties (a popular notion with Laura Ingraham) but I digress). However, I'm coming around. The first step was watching Biden say months ago to Secretary Rumsfeld that we had to scrupulously follow the Geneva Convention so that our guys, when captured, would get the same treatment. How to say this? What a maroon.
OK, pop quiz: When was the last time captured American soldiers were treated by the enemy captors in conformity with the minimum requirements of the Geneva Convention?
If you answered May, 1945 in Germany, you can feel smug about your historical knowledge for a while. That's right, 60 years ago!
I have a two book 'oral' history of the Korean War (actually I gave it to my dad but over the years he regifted). The first volume is much better than the second, but the second has accounts of captivity and they are tales of unrelenting misery. Not Geneva Convention spartan conditions but actual horror, degradation and death. In the Vietnam war, the POWs were tortured regularly. Senator John McCain could tell Joe Biden about how well the NVA followed the Convention. In the Iraq War, part one, also known as the Gulf War, the Iraqi captors beat and executed British and American captives. There's a movie, but I've forgotten it's name (maybe in a update; it had numbers it it) with Sean Bean about a British SAS group in Iraq who are all killed or captured. They are kept naked in cells and beaten every day (sounds twice as bad as the 'horrors' of Abu Graib to me). I know it's just a movie. But slow Joe Biden should know that our guys don't get the protections of the Convention at all and it has nothing to do with our giving them to our captives (you can't really call them prisoners of war because the Islamofascists trying to kill us (and other Muslims apparently at random) don't qualify as prisoners of war under the Convention). We treat the detainees humanely (for the most part) because we are good people. No rational human could think we're going to get the same treatment back. Anyone seen one of the several beheading tapes lately?
UPDATE
The movie was called Bravo Two Zero. I wish I could learn to link. It would be very handy to be able to link.
FURTHER UPDATE
I neglected to close the circle. The history descussed above means that the people we have fought since May ,1945 (and that includes the Japanese) weren't as good to our soldiers as the NAZIs were. Good thoughts on this by Jay Tea at Wizbangblog.com. Still would be good to be able to link. I am making progress on the link list above left. It involves writing code though. How thrilling!
OK, pop quiz: When was the last time captured American soldiers were treated by the enemy captors in conformity with the minimum requirements of the Geneva Convention?
If you answered May, 1945 in Germany, you can feel smug about your historical knowledge for a while. That's right, 60 years ago!
I have a two book 'oral' history of the Korean War (actually I gave it to my dad but over the years he regifted). The first volume is much better than the second, but the second has accounts of captivity and they are tales of unrelenting misery. Not Geneva Convention spartan conditions but actual horror, degradation and death. In the Vietnam war, the POWs were tortured regularly. Senator John McCain could tell Joe Biden about how well the NVA followed the Convention. In the Iraq War, part one, also known as the Gulf War, the Iraqi captors beat and executed British and American captives. There's a movie, but I've forgotten it's name (maybe in a update; it had numbers it it) with Sean Bean about a British SAS group in Iraq who are all killed or captured. They are kept naked in cells and beaten every day (sounds twice as bad as the 'horrors' of Abu Graib to me). I know it's just a movie. But slow Joe Biden should know that our guys don't get the protections of the Convention at all and it has nothing to do with our giving them to our captives (you can't really call them prisoners of war because the Islamofascists trying to kill us (and other Muslims apparently at random) don't qualify as prisoners of war under the Convention). We treat the detainees humanely (for the most part) because we are good people. No rational human could think we're going to get the same treatment back. Anyone seen one of the several beheading tapes lately?
UPDATE
The movie was called Bravo Two Zero. I wish I could learn to link. It would be very handy to be able to link.
FURTHER UPDATE
I neglected to close the circle. The history descussed above means that the people we have fought since May ,1945 (and that includes the Japanese) weren't as good to our soldiers as the NAZIs were. Good thoughts on this by Jay Tea at Wizbangblog.com. Still would be good to be able to link. I am making progress on the link list above left. It involves writing code though. How thrilling!
# posted by Roger Fraley @ 6:30 AM 
Comments:
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A very long time ago, I had just watched a tv documentary about the atrocities carried out on millions of souls by the Nazi`s in the Second World War. The film footage of the time was extremely graphic.
My mother informed me that it was incredibly easy for fascism and barbarism to take hold in any country of the world.
I said that people should kill the fascists before they had a chance to do anything.
My mother was horrified. She said to me, "If you do that, then you become
just the same as them."
Civilization moves slowly...you can`t fight barbarism with more barbarism...it just doesn`t work.
History tells us that.
My mother informed me that it was incredibly easy for fascism and barbarism to take hold in any country of the world.
I said that people should kill the fascists before they had a chance to do anything.
My mother was horrified. She said to me, "If you do that, then you become
just the same as them."
Civilization moves slowly...you can`t fight barbarism with more barbarism...it just doesn`t work.
History tells us that.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. It leaves me with two questions. Did we Americans become barbarians in winning WWII? (I don't think so). And, the Vandals are attacking Rome, is it better for the Romans to remain civilized and lose or is it better for them to do whatever it takes to keep the Vandals from sacking Rome? Just asking.
Ah ha!
Howcome it`s always the US who won the war? Be careful...lots of other allies took part there..for a long time before the US decided to enter the war..and lost their lives doing so. 20,000,000 Russians died you know, there`s a figure people like to forget about.
It also can be argued that if it hadn`t been for the war reparations inflicted on Germany after the 1st World War, which brought their country to financial ruin, it wouldn`t have been easy for a man like Hitler to rise to power so easily. Lets face it, after WW1, the Germans were financially ruined, publicly humiliated...looking for someone to restore their lives and dignity.....we laid a straight path for him.
....And we did it to make them pay for what they had done..revenge.
The USA took a different approach with Japan after the war...not revenge, but helping to rebuild the Japanese infrastructure...which worked so much better, don`t you think?
The US often mentions Roman strategey.
Fabulous fighting force..but again, be careful...they were Empire builders, and much hated and despised
by the international peoples of the time.
There is a big difference, however, in the Romans defending Rome, their homeland, to going out searching out potential Vandals and persecuting them.
Important to note, we now know that the Vandals had an extremely complex society and culture, and were no less civilised than the Romans at the time. The Vandals were also good strategists.
The trick in life is to keep enemies at bay....but in doing so, make sure that you are careful that you do not create more of them.
Howcome it`s always the US who won the war? Be careful...lots of other allies took part there..for a long time before the US decided to enter the war..and lost their lives doing so. 20,000,000 Russians died you know, there`s a figure people like to forget about.
It also can be argued that if it hadn`t been for the war reparations inflicted on Germany after the 1st World War, which brought their country to financial ruin, it wouldn`t have been easy for a man like Hitler to rise to power so easily. Lets face it, after WW1, the Germans were financially ruined, publicly humiliated...looking for someone to restore their lives and dignity.....we laid a straight path for him.
....And we did it to make them pay for what they had done..revenge.
The USA took a different approach with Japan after the war...not revenge, but helping to rebuild the Japanese infrastructure...which worked so much better, don`t you think?
The US often mentions Roman strategey.
Fabulous fighting force..but again, be careful...they were Empire builders, and much hated and despised
by the international peoples of the time.
There is a big difference, however, in the Romans defending Rome, their homeland, to going out searching out potential Vandals and persecuting them.
Important to note, we now know that the Vandals had an extremely complex society and culture, and were no less civilised than the Romans at the time. The Vandals were also good strategists.
The trick in life is to keep enemies at bay....but in doing so, make sure that you are careful that you do not create more of them.
Thanks again for your comments. I tracked you back to your website and like the bubble girl. I am aware of Russia's sacrifice in the Great Patriotic War. Had we not helped them at all, the war in Europe probably would have ended Summer of '46. We did defeat Japan almost all by our selves. Britian helped a little, as did the Chinese. The Russians entered it in August, '45, when it was all but over, and did well. So we didn't become barbarians defeating the evil Imperial Japan was and helping to defeat the Nazis (evil lefties)? We went on to help them both after the war (Marshall plan, etc.).
Be careful with your use of "we" about the Treaty of Versailles. Wilson didn't make it punitive. Although I do agree that it and the depression helped pave the way for Hitler.
Had no idea the Vandals were civilized (and I kinda doubt it)-- are we talking about Plains Indians civilized, or Persian Empire civilized? And yes the Romans were conquerors but other than the roads, sanitation, medicine... what did they ever do for the people they conquered?, to mangle Cleese in Life of Brian.
But I do agree with your end thought. It would be very clever to defeat the old enemy without making new. Isn't that what we did in WWII, (except for the cold war with Russia that followed)? Indeed, didn't we make allies of our one time enemies? Thanks again.
Be careful with your use of "we" about the Treaty of Versailles. Wilson didn't make it punitive. Although I do agree that it and the depression helped pave the way for Hitler.
Had no idea the Vandals were civilized (and I kinda doubt it)-- are we talking about Plains Indians civilized, or Persian Empire civilized? And yes the Romans were conquerors but other than the roads, sanitation, medicine... what did they ever do for the people they conquered?, to mangle Cleese in Life of Brian.
But I do agree with your end thought. It would be very clever to defeat the old enemy without making new. Isn't that what we did in WWII, (except for the cold war with Russia that followed)? Indeed, didn't we make allies of our one time enemies? Thanks again.
Just thought I`d drop in quickly in passing....thanks for your comments on my site.
This week has been pretty hectic with my business, so I have just been too physically and mentally shattered to go visiting.
Will return at some point to your site ...enjoy the banter....right now, however, I am about to have a much needed early night!
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This week has been pretty hectic with my business, so I have just been too physically and mentally shattered to go visiting.
Will return at some point to your site ...enjoy the banter....right now, however, I am about to have a much needed early night!
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